by Infogram
Crie infográficos

Jaime Serra

Entrevista exclusiva com um dos mais conceituados infografistas do mundo

novembro 19, 2012
(photo: Jaime Serra)

Há algumas semanas atrás, falamos da nossa visita ao INFOLIDE, o principal evento de infografia e design editorial do Brasil, e da intervenção de um dos seus principais palestrantes, o espanhol Jaime Serra. Nessa ocasião, Serra mostrou parte do trabalho que vem desenvolvendo  na sua coluna de opinião aos domingos no jornal La Vanguardia.

O trabalho jornalístico de Serra foi reconhecido no Malofiej20, onde se juntou a um seleto grupo de profissionais que marcaram a atividade nos últimos 20 anos. Ao lado de nomes como John GrimwadeNigel Holmes e Fernando Baptista, Jaime Serra é uma das referências inolvidáveis da infografia.

Ao longo da sua carreira, assistiu e manteve colaborações com publicações como o The Intependent , National Geographic Magazine, Corriere Della Sera, Il Sole 24 Ore, Gazzeta dello Sport, La StampaEditora Abril, Folha de Sao PauloEl Periódico de Catalunya, Grupo Vocento, Tele 5, El Mundo Deportivo, Clarín, La Nación, La Voz del Interior, Olé, El Comercio, La República, Diario de Noticias, Jornal de Noticias , apenas para citar alguns

Mas Jaime Serra é também um artista multidisciplinar, uma máquina criativa autodidata que segue apenas uma regra simples: fazer de tudo. Experimentar, tentar, reinventar, se desafiar a si mesmo. Aprender fazendo. Aprender é a máxima recompensa.

Claro que Arte e Jornalismo são duas coisas bem distintas e é com um enorme  prazer que trazemos esta entrevista com Jaime Serra, na qual ele compartilha a sua visão sobre esses dois mundos aparentemente antagônicos mas extremamente complementares.

 

Visual Loop (VL) – Para começar, a pergunta óbvia: o que é a Infografia, segundo Jaime serra?

Jaime Serra (JS) – De uma maneira geral, é uma forma de comunicação que faz uso das linguagens visual e textual. Ambas as linguagens complementam-se entre si, partes de um todo, e portanto não são plenamente compreendidas em separado. Sem a imagem, o texto não faz sentido, e vice-versa. Esta forma de comunicação é usada, com algumas variações, para diferentes propósitos: ciência, arte, publicidade ou jornalismo.

Não acredito que a infografia possa ser descrita ou definida “segundo” alguém. Não se trata da perspectiva pessoal de um individuo em particular. A maioria dos profissionais de infografia já carrega consigo há bastante tempo determinados critérios que fazem com que a nossa profissão tenha uma definição conceitual clara e consensual.

O fato de ser uma pergunta habitual pode dar a sensação de que a definição de infografia está aberta a ser debatida, a opiniões diferentes. Não entendo dessa maneira. Como uma pergunta habitual, não consigo conceber em outras profissões, por exemplo, “segundo você, o que é a física?”. Poderia ser “para”, em termos da importância pessoa que tem para uma pessoa em particular, mas não “segundo”.

VL – Olhando para os seus 25 anos de carreira, o que mudou, o que evoluiu, na forma como usa a infografia

JS – Eu tenho a sorte de pertencer a uma geração de profissionais que coincidiu com o surgimento em massa da infografia na Imprensa. No final da década de 80, os critérios para a infografia eram vagos, e tivemos de ir definindo quais seriam. Tivemos de dar forma à nossa profissão. Em termos criativos, não podíamos ser mais felizes. Sempre foi entendido que a infografia era uma combinação entre a linguagem visual e escrita, mas, de fato, a forma como se enxerga  essa combinação tem sofrido alterações significativas ao longo dos últimos 25 anos.

Felizmente, tem havido uma tendência contínua: valorizar cada vez mais a precisão das informações, mesmo em detrimento do – sempre subjetivo – apelo gráfico. Assim, a profissão deixou de ser uma forma de ilustração e passou a ser forma de jornalismo.

É claro que já existiam antecedentes históricos, a maioria deles de caráter científico, mas também era possível bons exemplos jornalísticos nas bibliotecas. De qualquer forma, as principais influências vinham da imprensa dos Estados Unidos e em especial do jornal USA Today. Paradoxalmente, os dois grandes nomes dessa altura eram ingleses, embora trabalhando em Nova York: Nigel Holmes permeava na revista Time o seu estilo peculiar e John Grimwade dava lições de síntese com as suas ótimas representações em perspectiva axonométrica na Condé Nast Traveler.

As principais alterações formais, no contexto do uso jornalístico, foram as relacionados à ilustração. No final dos anos 80, grande parte do trabalho parecia consistir de “amenizar” a apresentação de dados estatísticos, geralmente através de desenhos. Com o tempo, tornou-se claro que ilustrações não eram necessárias, não só porque não contribuíam para informação, mas também porque acabavam por distrair o leitor, ou pior ainda, transmitindo mensagens contraditórias. E enquanto isso, os gráficos que narravam um acontecimento eram muito esquemáticos ou faziam uma representação deficiente dos acontecimentos.

Durante os anos 90, as infografias com ilustrações poderosas pareciam fundamentais para explicar determinadas informações e notícias, geralmente reportagens. Mas também se procurava por uma perspectiva na noticia que permitisse a inclusão desse tipo de gráfico. Atualmente, essa busca por uma perspectiva dentro da noticia acabou, graças aos dados. Agora, encontramos notícias nos veículos que necessitam de um gráfico cujo centro seja uma ilustração mas que é abordado a partir de uma perspectiva que coloca a ênfase sobre os dados. A chamada visualização de dados. A tecnologia que nos permite recolher uma infinidade de dados e apresentá-los com precisão é um tema apaixonante, mas em muitos casos veio um abandono de um dos trabalhos fundamentais do jornalista: a edição.

Eu não acho que só porque temos todo os dados, devemos apresentá-los dessa forma ao leitor, o nosso trabalho é selecionar aqueles que consideramos realmente importante para os nossos leitores e oferecer-lhes de uma forma simples. Ou seja, um dos trabalhos principais do jornalismo: a edição.

Voltando à sorte que tive em poder participar, por uma questão geracional, na definição dos critérios que iriam reger a infografia, devo dizer que tive uma segunda oportunidade para fazê-lo: o fato de ser contratado para construir um departamento de infografia para o principal diário um país onde a profissão não existia, pressupunha logo no de inicio algumas dificuldades. Mas eu aprendi a encontrar maneiras de transformar esta aparente desvantagem em uma oportunidade maravilhosa: se não existiam conceitos predefinidos, então eu poderia reinventar os que eu tinha, ou pelo menos questioná-los livremente.

Dessa oportunidade vieram dois conceitos fundamentais: o uso de estilos de ilustração diferentes para potenciar o conteúdo informativo a partir do primeiro contato visual e a viabilidade de ter um estilo próprio, individual, de fazer infografia.

Eu não acho que só porque temos todo os dados, devemos apresentá-los dessa forma ao leitor, o nosso trabalho é selecionar aqueles que consideramos realmente importante para os nossos leitores e oferecer-lhes de uma forma simples. Ou seja, um dos trabalhos principais do jornalismo: a edição.

VL – Falar de referências e influências com um jornalista é algo que normalmente dá para uma longa conversa. Mas se você pudesse eleger três personalidades, jornalistas ou não, que ajudaram a sua evolução como infografista, quem seriam?

JS – Note-se que eu sou completamente autodidata. Meu principal meio de aprendizagem tem sido fazer tudo o que posso. Também não faço uma distinção clara entre as influências diretamente profissionais e aqueles que afetam a nossa personalidade, para poder enxergar e compreender a vida como um todo. Na verdade, eu acho que são estas últimas que impactam o trabalho de forma mais profunda e permanente, já que mudar a tua forma de ver a realidade vai causar o mesmo no teu trabalho. Por isso, o volume de influências é enorme. A tua pergunta exige o exercício de um tamanho reducionismo que não sou capaz de fazer. No entanto, eu posso pensar de três casos, provavelmente não são os mais importantes, mas são no mínimo curiosos:

O meu interesse, durante um certo período, por trabalhos realizados manualmente, com um lado mais plástico, coincidiu com a descoberta de uma escola americana de ilustração, da qual a figura mais destacada é, para mim, Henrik Drescher. A sua influência no traço nervoso e nas colagens permaneceu comigo durante muito tempo.

Quanto à gestão de um departamento, para que funcione como uma equipe e se retire o melhor dele, vou compartilhar contigo algo divertido. A passagem pelo Clarín foi a minha experiência mais profunda e coincidiu com um momento especifico do futebol: O time de sonho do Barcelona, comando por Johan Cruyff. O conceito fundamental de Cruyff, o ‘Futebol Total”, estava de alguma forma presente nas decisões de criação dentro do departamento. A importância das ‘camadas jovens’ – nos jornais, representados pelos estagiários -, precisão no jogo sem abdicar do espetáculo, um estilo claro a ser seguido sempre, decisões de risco e talento individual assentes em um time em que todos podem jogar em qualquer posição…

Mais recentemente, e a um nível mais profundo, uma dupla que desafiou paradigmas na relação visual-texto: Duchamp & Burroughs. Marcel Duchamp foi, aliás, o artista mais influente do século passado – e sua influência continua sendo sentida -, e também o criador mais claro e objetivo (e talvez o único) da utilização da infografia para fins artísticos.

Uma das suas obras mais importantes, “The Bride Stripped Bare by Her Bachelors, Even”, é claramente uma representação infográfica, uma infografia subjetiva. Para a total compreensão da obra, Duchamp deixou uma série de textos curtos em “The Large Glass”. Ambos os elementos, a obra gráfica e texto, são essenciais para a entender. Acho este o melhor infográfico subjetivo de todos os tempos.

Quanto a William S. Burroughs – o oposto de Duchamp enquanto individuo – a sua filosofia sobre os limites e o manipulável na linguagem teve um impacto profundo em mim, e consequentemente, no meu trabalho mais recente.

VL – Ser considerado como “O infografista mais influente dos últimos 20 anos” no Malofiej20 foi o culminar da sua carreira? Ou foi apenas mais um momento importante, como outros?

JS – “Culminar” significa chegar ao topo, a partir de onde só se pode descer. É uma ideia que tem a ver com a passagem do tempo. Dá um certo medo. Prefiro pensar que nunca chegarei a colocar a bandeira no topo, que sempre estarei olhando para cima, vendo as nuvens acariciando um cume que nunca irei alcançar.

Claro que houveram outros momentos importantes, vividos de forma mais intensa por que o jornalismo me atraia mais do que atualmente. Por isso, toda a experiência relacionada com a profissão tinha mais valor. Os trabalhos pelos quais eu acho que me foi atribuído esse prêmio já tinham tido importantes reconhecimentos na altura em que foram publicados. Isso me levou a acessar oportunidades profissionais absolutamente enriquecedoras, a ofertas de trabalho que me levaram a tomar decisões difíceis. Definitivamente, me ajudou a continuar a aprender, que é a melhor recompensa.

Além disso, trata-se apenas de um prêmio. Muito gratificante, é verdade, especialmente considerando que foi um voto de cerca de 3.000 profissionais do mundo inteiro, onde João Grimwade, Nigel Holmes e Fernando Baptista foram finalistas e qualquer um deles teria sido um digno vencedor. Mas é apenas um prêmio, no dia seguinte você acorda e enfrenta os mesmos velhos problemas na redação.

VL – “A infografia não pode ser arte, mas bem, a arte sim pode ser infografia”. Este foi o título do Workshop que você ministrou no INFOLIDE. Pode nos explicar brevemente o que significa este aparente trocadilho, e qual a relação que tem tido na sua coluna semanal no La Vanguardia

JS – É um trocadilho, de fato, um jogo de palavras. E como qualquer jogo de palavras esconde um significado. São duas afirmações aparentemente contraditórias e de uma obviedade total.

Na verdade, está ligado a uma crise com o meu trabalho mais recente, no La Vanguardia. Sempre defendi, e ainda defendo, que infografia jornalística não é arte (pelo menos como eu entendo a arte). Todo profissional que trabalha em um jornal deve sentir, pensar, ser jornalista. Fotógrafos, designers gráficos, todos, a fim de explicar as notícias da forma ais atraente, precisa e simples possível. A estética é um elemento totalmente subjetivo e, portanto, secundário. Nada do que é publicado em um jornal deve ser criado com o fim de ser arte. Agora, é outra questão se o leitor / espectador considerar que determinada peça jornalística seja também arte. Isto ocorreu sobretudo com fotojornalistas. Paredes dos mais importantes museus do mundo têm fotografias de Weegee ou Capa, mas quando eles capturaram as imagens não estavam pensando sobre a composição ou a luz, e sim em capturar a notícia.

Durante o período em que estava criando infografias com uma componente plástica forte, muitos colegas me diziam que eu estava fazendo arte. Eu entendo e agradeço o elogio, mas era um comentário que eu nunca ‘engoli’ direito. Para mim, arte passa por outros aspectos, tem muito mais a ver com a ética do que estética.

A arte contemporânea é uma das atividades mais abertas que existem, pode ser feito um discurso eficiente através dos critérios da infografia mais rigorosa. Há toda uma história de uso de infográficos para fins artísticos, desde as chapas de Rudolph Steiner (embora não seja começado como arte, à semelhança de Cappa ou Weegee), até – novamente -, Duchamp. E hoje em dia a utilização da visualização de dados para fins artísticos está bastante disseminada.

Para mim, a principal diferença entre infografia para fins jornalísticos ou artísticos é que, enquanto na primeira a informação deve tentar ser o mais objetiva possível, a segunda permite uma completa subjetividade,  pode prestar-se a interpretações diferentes, todas elas válidas, e daí o meu conceito de infográficos subjetivos, algo aparentemente contraditório.

As colunas a que te referes na pergunta são artigos de opinião. Ao leitor dizemos claramente que ali não se apresentam acontecimentos, a não ser na perspectiva especifica de um individuo. Subentende-se que em artigos de opinião o autor pode expressar plenamente aspectos pessoais, e é o que estou tentando fazer, mas sem me limitar apenas ao conteúdo.

Isso é arte? Acho que não. Em qualquer caso, o que importa mesmo é se é interessante para um grupo suficiente de leitores. Mas reconheço que eu precisei da corroboração que foi dada por grandes profissionais como Pablo Corral Vega, Roberto Guareschi, Mario Tascon ou Alfredo Tribiño, de que essas colunas eram jornalismo, quiçá um novo jornalismo, para superar meus próprios preconceitos sobre o que é ou não jornalismo, e, portanto, o que deve ou não deve ser publicado no jornal.

Para mim, a principal diferença entre infografia para fins jornalísticos ou artísticos é que, enquanto na primeira a informação deve tentar ser o mais objetiva possível, a segunda permite uma completa subjetividade,  pode prestar-se a interpretações diferentes, todas elas válidas, e daí o meu conceito de infográficos subjetivos, algo aparentemente contraditório.

VL – Olhando para o mercado atualmente, parece evidente que a imprensa mundial está lutando para absorver a nova realidade da maneira como consumimos informação e conteúdo. Mas a Internet não trouxe apenas coisas ruins para o segmento, certo? Na sua opinião, quais as grandes oportunidades que jornais e revistas estão perdendo?

JS – Para começar, acho um erro a imprensa tradicional queira competir com as mídias digitais, já que é uma batalha perdida. A mídia digital é uma desculpa maravilhosa para mudar o tamanho do papel na direção oposta a que estamos fazendo: mais texto, mais análise, mais profundidade, mais rigor, menos imagens e melhor editadas, em suma, melhor jornalismo. Sem tanta necessidade de prontidão, de imediatismo, para isso já os novos canais nos quais consumimos informação. Ambos os meios poderiam coexistir, pelo menos por um bom tempo.

A Tecnologia, as novas mídias, não são um problema, pelo contrário, nunca vivemos uma época melhor do que a atual para investigar e distribuir informação. Devido a isso, estamos em crise, mas toda a crise é uma transição e sempre levam a um lugar melhor. Eu não tenho nenhuma dúvida de que vamos encontrar o destino final adequado.

Por outro lado, não quero imaginar uma sociedade sem que ninguém cumpra o papel quem vem sendo desenvolvido pelos meios de comunicação. O ‘jornalismo cidadão’ não é jornalismo, é informação em bruto.

O grande erro que nós fizemos, o verdadeiro dilema, não é entre digital ou papel, é entre o jornalismo e dinheiro. Quando eu comecei nesta profissão há 25 anos, o objetivo principal era fazer o bom jornalismo, e como resultado disso você podia ganhar dinheiro, mas o contrário não funcionava. Com o objetivo principal de se fazer dinheiro não se consegue fazer bom jornalismo e nunca resulta em negócios suficientemente bons quando comparados à especulação em qualquer outro setor. Hoje, de uma maneira geral, não são os jornalistas que mandam nos meios, são homens de negócios que em muitos casos não sabem nada da profissão. Outra perversão do dilema papel/digital é que um é pago e o outro é gratuito, e assim a verdadeira questão se transforma em pago versus livre e é ridículo pagar por algo que eu possa obter gratuitamente. É preciso oferecer mais qualidade para aquele que paga.

Não quero imaginar uma sociedade sem que ninguém cumpra o papel quem vem sendo desenvolvido pelos meios de comunicação. O ‘jornalismo cidadão’ não é jornalismo, é informação em bruto.

VL – E quanto á questão de se subestimar o leitor? Assumir desde o principio que ele não vai entender narrativas mais complexas e elaboradas, não pode esta também uma razão para a fuga dos leitores?

Trabalho com a ideia de que o ‘leitor’ não existe, esse é um conceito de marketing muito comum nas redações de hoje. Não existe uma entidade como “O leitor”, existem leitores, com sensibilidades, interesses e níveis culturais muito diferentes. O único leitor que conheço mais ou menos sou eu mesmo, e tenho a certeza que existirão outros interessados nas mesmas coisas que me interessam. Creio que a única opção viável é trabalhar pensando em nós mesmos como leitores. Assim, estaríamos nos subestimando a nós mesmos, e eu prefiro pensar que os meus leitores são pessoas inteligentes e sensíveis.

Além disso, sabemos que nem todos os leitores estão interessados em análises econômicas ou políticas e não é por isso que deixamos de publicá-las. Nem todos precisam entender certas propostas relacionadas ao jornalismo visual, não tem de ser algo necessariamente para todos.

VL – Para terminar, que conselhos daria alguém que está pensando em iniciar uma carreira jornalística, em especial na infografia?

JS – Eu acho que é um mau conselho fazer caso de conselhos. Uma pessoa deve se informar e tirar suas próprias conclusões. A necessidade de estar informado é maior do que nunca, há mais canais do que nunca, portanto existe um potencial de negócio maior do que nunca. A coisa mais interessante que me vem à mente para recomendar é dedicar-se a descobrir o novo modelo de negócio.

Quanto aos infográficos, eu ainda acho que o papel é o melhor dos meios de comunicação, não sei se a mídia digital terá um futuro tão saudável o passado recente do papel. O ambiente digital permite uma abundância de imagens, áudio, vídeo; a infografia torna mais dinâmico um suporte estático, mas não me parece que a Internet necessite desse acréscimo de dinamismo. Continuará existindo nos meios que apostem na qualidade, independente do formato, mas, infelizmente, isso não parece mais ter valor e fazer infográficos é caro.

VL – Muito obrigado, Jaime!

JS – Obrigado!

 

Queríamos agradecer novamente ao Jaime Serra pela sua disponibilidade em nos conceder esta entrevista, Você pode acompanhar o seu trabalho no seu blog e seguir as suas atualizações no Twitter (@ja_serra).

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Escrito por Tiago Veloso

Tiago Veloso is the founder and editor of Visualoop and Visualoop Brasil . He is Portuguese, currently based in Bonito, Brazil.

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